Arjun Sen, "Brand Yoda" of Zen Mango

(: 00:02

Welcome back, everyone. I'm Mark Stinson, and you've come to our podcast, unlocking your world of creativity. And this is the podcast where we go literally around the world to talk to global creative leaders about how they get inspired for their ideas, but also how they organize their ideas and create the methods and techniques, and processes that they can implement these ideas. And then most of all, how we can gain the confidence and the connections to help launch our ideas out into the world and welcome to our 100th episode. We've, we've reached a real milestone today and yes, a little fist bump between me and my guests here today. It's a real honor to have a special guest Arjan Sen Arjun's company is Zen mango, but yeah, he is well-known as a form of marketing director and operations professional in the restaurant and service area, especially with Papa John's you may not know the Zen mango name, but you certainly know the brands that Arjun Sen has impacted. And we're going to go through some of those today and they include names that you've all been to like Chipotle and Chili's and Quiznos and Einstein brothers, and pizza hut, all these great names, but also surprising names that we'll also get into. I'd love to talk about DaVita and the dialysis and healthcare field, but overall, he's got a great book called customer karma, and it really uncovers a lot of the secrets to a great customer experience. Arjun. I'm just so glad to have you today. I appreciate you coming on.

(: 01:37

Mark, it's totally a pleasure and I want to congratulate you on a hundred episodes and to be honored, to be on the milestone episode. I also feel that you know, what I loved about creativity and what Biosense breaks your company brings is for postponers because the moment I read about it creates the bridge from where you are to where you want to be. I felt that is the creativity bridge. I want to cross with Mark Stinson.

(: 02:09

Well, I appreciate your saying so well, Arjun, and I think as we get started, I mean, with all your restaurant and service and retail experience, I don't think we could really get into and set context for customer service at that level without addressing the elephant in the room first and foremost. And that is that conditions and the market factors and the pressure that restaurant tours and franchises are facing having gone through and still recovering from the pandemic what have your clients have been saying? And what have you been observing?

(: 02:46

So to me, I really think that you know, everybody is a little worried, little is an understatement, but clients who are doing well are getting ready for the world to open, full throttle, knowing that when a guest comes out to eat for the first time without hesitation, let's make it special. And in this process, opportunities have come in two big areas. Number one is earlier, we had a lot of barriers, fast, casual and casual dining and everything else. Now, everything because of the cone has all blended together, which means if I was a small restaurant chain, I can now steal market share from anyone and everyone visualize the last week of playoffs. There's no more seatings. You win and you get into the playoffs. That is the position. If you can get into that spot, it is. And the second part as you start looking at is what we are all realizing is the bar has been raised in the sense that yesterday's performance doesn't matter what we do for me. Imagine if the Tokyo Olympics happens and the rule changes to, by saying there's only gold medal, that's the only medal that could be awarded. There's no silver, no bronze. Each team will play totally differently. A winner takes all and everybody else loses. And that's the part where I think that the world is opening up, but restaurant friends, brilliant minds are gearing up to really not trap and cake service levels to the next highest wine to hold onto guests.

(: 04:32

Yeah. It's so fascinating. What you say about this great equalizer, you know, that all of a sudden fine dining and QSR, as we like to say, you know, that quick-serve because it's, it's order online, it's a curbside pickup, it's take it home and needed on your own plate, on your own table. All of a sudden the experience is completely different, isn't it?

(: 04:53

Yeah. And you know, just building on just that, think, what we all learned in the last 12 months, and this is the first time ever the entire world has gone through this social experiment together, where we all realized that the coolest place to dine is our own dining hall. Second, what we realize is the coolest people to dine with our friends and family. So now that we got addicted to the coolest and the most convenient place where you and I can walk in PJ's or a shorts, a tank top, and have gourmet meal, and we have done that over 12 months, it's not going away. So building on the best of both worlds is very important. And this is the part where a very simple figure. I want to push in front of anybody on the receiving end and also on the delivery end of guest service and restaurants is for too long, we have served dining food or takeout.

(: 05:58

If I were to cook something for you that you will enjoy an hour from now, it has to be designed differently. And I learned this from Papa John's, John snotor when he was designing the pizzas, what he felt was his pizzas will be at peak performance, not 15 minutes after the kid comes out, but 30 minutes, unlike anybody else, he put cheese on top, which insulates never bonds the toppings. And if you do a taste test of any pizza, Papa John's comes distance. And the first 10, 15, 20 minutes, but it stays there after 45 minutes, their pizza is designed. So I would request that for anytime off premise, we need to design the food. And that's the reason, even though we call it, eat out, let's call it, eat in. So when Mark brings the food in, he gets the food in, at his home in the best possible way.

(: 06:57

You, no, that's a great point of view because you're saying design it for what the new situation is. You're not just saying, what container can I put it in to carry it home? My wife and I, of course, as many people did experience this. Some food travels better than others, right? And you're right. Once you get it home, do I put it in the stove? Do I put it on a skillet? Do I put it in the microwave? What's the best way now to prepare it so interesting. You also describing, I think designing the total experience differently, you know, there's no longer the host or hostess. There's no longer the server that comes to your table. There's no longer than pay the check at the end and all that sort of thing. A whole new customer pathway is being formed. Isn’t it?

(: 07:45

Totally. And that's the part where going beyond restaurants, what I've found is over the last 15 to 20 years, there are two human trends that has not changed. The intensity of those have magnified. And the two trends are one customers want to be in control. And secondly, they want to be self-paced. Think, when was the last time you and your wife went to any restaurant retail service, anywhere where you felt you did not have control or you were rushed. And that's the part where when you blend those two things together in the book, customer karma, I talk about that. Each one of us Mark is either in one of two steaks, either he's a butterfly or a Terminator, a butter, a Terminator is the cap that you're wearing. If you want a replacement, you are exactly asking a store by saying, do you have this cocky cap?

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This size right there? If not, as I come in, can the tap meet me near the door? And that's the Terminator. On the other side, you are a butterfly. The days you're a butterfly, you are in a conversation. You really want to know where do you get your fabric? What do you do for the farmers? But there are two things to remember. One is each one of us can be a butterfly or a Terminator on different days. Second thing is creating highways for butterfly to be a terminator or other way around. If you had suppose planning to pick your wife at the airport and you are a happy-going butterfly, just text by saying, my flight landed half an hour early, you become terminated right now. I need to go because the cap is not as important as you getting a wife and the first hug after she comes back from a trip, the same way the flight is half an hour delayed.

(: 09:39

Now the Terminator has little more time. So to me, I really feel that looking at the bigger picture. And the thing that you also mentioned is when you and your wife get food at home, you also need clear instructions on what to do with the food and how can you get it ready for best way of experiencing the food. And if you don't know it, that's another golden rule I feel is you cannot be a long-term connection with customers by making customers feel stupid at any point of time. So empowering it. And all of a sudden you become the super chef by microwaving some baking some, and now your wife's like, wow, mark, you did that. And mark has the smile on his face. Oh yeah. You know rock star me. But they made you feel rock star. They win and you win

(: 10:36

Well. And some contribution, I think of these food kits now there's a contribution to the cooking. Yeah. And to that experience, isn't there. It didn't just show up. Yeah. So interesting. So as we think about the book customer karma, then you know, I guess the the idea of karma being it all comes around know back to you, but building the relationship with the customer from that first experience that you're not just looking for that transaction that you were just describing, but rather you are trying to build a relationship. What are some of the other I guess, traits of a relationship with the customer?

(: 11:17

So, one thing you talked about I think is very important is the whole concept of karma is not transactional. So sometimes we think karma is what goes around, comes around. Not really. I grew up with my grandma called her. [naudible], she taught me the whole concept of karma is in any situation, you caught an opportunity to be there. Your job is to do the best you can. That's it. I'm on this podcast invited by you and you were raised the bar by reading everything about me. So I had to come in reading about you because I get one chance to be on the 100 episodes of this incredible podcast.

(: 12:03

So putting best effort is paramount. And the second part in this book, I also connect everything to dating. And the fun part is dating and the customer experience are very similar visualize just for a second. Mark, you're single and I'm connecting your would-be wife on a first date because you know you and I know each other, the moment you meet her, you would right away put her into one of three buckets. Or we would put you in one of three buckets. The buckets are alternate. Really? No thank you. Or on the other set out, I kill you. What the heck were you thinking or something in between the same thing happens with any experience for a customer? The first second first impression defines during the whole experience, there are ups and downs, ups and downs just make a presidentially debating or the ticket goes something like, for example, if I'm a candidate, I'll say something, I lose it forever, or I may get you forever.

(: 13:10

But just like in a date at the end of the date, your girlfriend, your wife would have to decide and put Mark into one of two buckets. One, even if this is the last man on this planet, I don't want to have anything to do with him bucket three, okay. You see something together. Steven sees that it will be a fun guy to go to a museum together and have a glass of wine to discuss, or that particular movie or go to the library or in between Friday night, XO movie tickets. So think the same thing happens when you leave a guest experience, you know, as a guest. And that's the part wherein the book customer am I really pushed by saying if I had a retail store or a service and you came in, I control home field advantage to give you the most amazing first impression.

(: 14:06

I also must remember that Mark sitting in my place where I have home field decides on my future. It's like, you are doing a Yelp review in front of me. So what can I do to influence on the, what I influence, get me a lifetime connection with you? The funny part of the book was my daughter is 27 now. And she was a little younger is my business partner, my mentor, and I have to get things approved. And the subtitle of the book is why you stop at a one-night stand when you can have a lifetime relationship. And my daughter told me, no, dad of mine talks about one-night stands. And of course, he was serious. I didn't want to add how many wives do you have a patient I didn't want to get in. So finally she gave in, but to me, that's the customer karma. Thank you again for giving me a chance to care about a big passion area of mine.

(: 15:07

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I guess I would like to pick up on that Arjun, say, you know, and reviewing the brands that you've had impact on and early in your career brands like pizza hut and Einstein brother Bagels, and then certainly developing the operations in the system and the marketing for Papa John's. But then all of a sudden, right in the middle of these restaurant brands and retail brands is DaVita a well-known healthcare brand and healthcare being the industry I'm most involved in. I was very curious at how some of these customer experience traits translated from a restaurant or a dining experience into a healthcare journey experience.

(: 15:52

So to me at the core of it is a very simple concept. And the concept is we are all in the feeling business. Okay. And that is very important because we are not in the experience. Business experience has to lead to a feeling because if I were to provide you an experience, I just check. Like I walk in robotic to say, welcome, mark, have a seat. What may I do for you? And I don't even smile. And you are scared to even ask me for even a glass of water. You're like Spanish, all good. So the feeling is very important and in the feeding business being okay, and being mediocre does not work just like going back to dating. If you were single and had an okay date, you don't reach the sock stops your moment. When I met my wife, I told her after the first night, I don't know.

(: 16:51

I don't want to put pressure on you, but for me to such stuff's here. She jokes even now by saying how crazy I said, no, girl, I don't play games. I felt it. And I told you, she felt a lot of pressure. But to me, I really think that that's the reason being okay, doesn't work, which means you have to be on, wow. That bit gets to the positive word of mouth, word of mouth, and the lifetime referral, or on the other side, you don’t want to get on the yell on Yelp moment. Customers are all-powerful. So now with the feeling business, what I felt was there are four steps to getting there and the steps are be human think human, feel human, and then [inaudible]. And this is very important because my, one of my coolest bosses ever, Glenhurst that time, who was the president of Papa.

(: 17:48

John's had taught me that my job if there's one thing I do as the VP of marketing and operations heading both these departments was every week, I must be a customer at my business and at competition, he even blocked promotion of mine because I was not doing it. I hated him, but I'm so glad he did it. And because without doing it, if you're not on the other side, wearing the shoes, you can't act like the customer. So if you connect the whole thing, be human, think human, feel human, and then act human, because we are all human beings, then you influence the feelings. And now if you start looking at ridiculous restaurants where you have an experience, there'll be there to me is a bigger experience. My father-in-law who we lost at the beginning of this year for four years, was brave enough to go into a dialysis center three times a week.

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I went with him a few times to realize once you went there, there was a pre-preparation. Then there was a car ride. Every time the car was five minutes late, he was waiting near the door at 5:00 AM in the morning. That's not a fun experience. The anxiety my mother-in-law went through. Once he went in, he had to be reminded that use the restroom first. So once it start, you cannot. And then for five hours, he sat there in front of a tiny screen. There's no blankets. Come on, man. If you come to my place and for five hours, you're sitting there forget about pain. I can get you a comfortable chair. I can get you a good view of TV to entertain and earphones. And that's the part where working with Devita, what we realized is the patient may not be paying it's coming through Medicare or somewhere else or an insurance, but it's the experience that we can still provide the patient to elevate it to the next level. So it's the same thing at every business. Everywhere is we are all in the film business.

(: 19:57

Yeah. Connecting as humans is so strong, so strong well and Arjun, you've developed these principles, these traits, these, you know I guess, recommendations even from a long career of doing things, right, but probably some hard lessons learned from the mistakes or the potholes and obstacles along the way. I was wondering if you could share with us some of those trying moments, some of those difficult moments, you mentioned one where, you know, you were passed over promotions, perhaps, but, but some of the mistakes and lessons learned,

(: 20:33

I think a new, a big success, which never materialized because of a big mistake. The first step I'm really proud of is that Papa John's. I sat down with entry-level team members to see how cleaning happens. And I realized that this is a 16 or 17 on 18-year-old. Who's just happy to be awake and physically make a trading meeting. It gives them a training binder. What the heck is a training binder. Okay. So as I sat there, I just started understanding their mindset. And with my team, we jumped started and created a comic book. And the two characters in the comic book were the founder and a female key member, how they interacted and a comic book allowed us to even [inaudible], wow, wow. Like it was attitude culture. I feel it was brilliant, but what was not brilliant, was how I did it.

(: 21:46

I could not have responsibility. [inaudible] So I blindsided the head of training by creating this and made her look bad. I am a human being. She's a human being. I hurt her feelings. And when you hurt somebody's feelings, that's not the way to build a team. And because of that, the adoption of this took longer. So I really feel, it's not about what we do, but how we do together as a team. And it would have been very easy if I had to go back, I really want to change this. I would have walked in with Mayann, [inaudible] and talk to her by saying, Hey, Maryanne, what you're doing, content is brilliant. I have an idea. And you and I sit in the backroom, let her feel it too. And then together do a high-five together. We come up with the comic book and then I back off and let her own the success. Because if she owned the success, we would have owned the implementation of the comic books. And that would have made the company win. Again. I blame that on immaturity, but I really feel it was another big lesson as you start going through.

(: 22:58

Yeah, for sure. Well, and these are often the lessons. I mean, you know, we can celebrate the successes and say, well, it all ended well, you know, and it was successful in that way, but then maybe how it was done in the people we affected. It is good to reflect on that. Isn't it? Well, Arjun, I think about your own creative journey and where you might see your creativity going now, what, what are some of the creative projects that you're looking forward to getting more involved in?

(: 23:30

So one of the things, you know, learning little bit from you, I really am trying to put creativity in everything I do as a purpose because I feel creativity. It's like the two ways to be creative. One is the Mark Stinson way, which is a purpose and a process. Or there could be the other way of buying a lottery ticket to be rich. Okay. The second one doesn't work for all people.

(: 23:59

I tried the second one. So I had to default to the first.

(: 24:03

Yeah. So for bad, I just feel the coolest and the most important piece I'm finding is see beyond. Most people see the same way. If you and I were average detectives, we would have gone to a crime scene and follow the 102 step processes and found nothing. Sherlock Holmes the name known by every person. I think on this planet, who cares about detective novels would have come in and his accent, he would have brilliantly said, and a British accent lifted the chair or the table leg and said here, and he would have found something, which we didn't. So to me, that's one of the things I'm looking at is I want to do more of this pause, see what others don't and give you a very simple example from one of the first projects I did, you know, I got paid $2,000 by a burrito chain later on the weekend to portlet, they asked me to do a sales graph for 22 mark markets.

(: 25:05

I did 22 markets, make sure the data was correct. And it looked exactly the same. Every time their sales speak starts in may and ends in September. And before I gave it, I asked myself this question, which I'm really proud of is what happened. We could move the sales peak, start in April middle and extend till October. I did the math it's billion dollars, additional every 34 months billion with a B. So when I made the presentation, so I showed them first is see beyond is, Hey, it's not the graph what's missing in the graphs. And then I said, do you have an extra 15 minutes? I could show you how you make billion dollars or it'll be probably per month. Of course you guys, the founders said, yes.

(: 26:00

Yeah. You'll say I'll make the time for it. The billion dollars.

(: 26:03

Absolutely. And then he was tinkering on marketing promotion, not as Steve for every idea. Just take a start with seeing beyond I feel this is the piece that you also miss is we rushed with an idea. Pause, use the creativity to make the reader. I said, Steve if I can give you an idea where it's like an annuity, you don't have to even run a marketing calendar automatically customers come and give you ideas, money. Like here's like, I would love that because look at what happens, end of October Halloween, you have aluminum foils. Why can't you own by saying any person who wears aluminum foil gets a free burrito and I'd already tested with my daughter. Initially. She was brave enough to put a some kind of a sling that her hand is broken with foil. Then, then after that, she would wear a two-piece bikini of course, on top of her clothes.

(: 26:59

But what I loved was when she went there, she got a free burrito, but she had four to five friends who went with her. paid full price and they put her on Instagram. So today for chipotle this is an automated idea. And Halloween is celebrated not one day over a week. And that has boosted the brand for that extra month. We tried the same one. April's [inaudible] is somewhat successful. So can we, my goal is with any brand anywhere, just have so much fun seeing beyond connecting the dots to wow. One more every guest, and then pause and do nothing and see how we can make ideas bigger because the bigger ideas pay exponentially more.

(: 27:52

I love that. And you brought back some great memories. I can already see my oldest kid wrapped in the foil because I do remember that promotion. And I remember the the craziness that ensued around it. It was so fun.

(: 28:07

Yeah. My daughter, one time even tried to make a mommy out of herself, and I told her girl , whatever you do, you're not driving today. So, but

(: 28:15

No No, It's, it's good if you're walking down the street into the Chipotle light.

(: 28:19

But also as the dad, I had to do the math, how much foil went into making the mommy?

(: 28:23

Oh, totally. You could have bought a whole bag of burritos bag on the 250 feet of foil. That's for sure. Well, our Arjun, what a great conversation. And I really appreciate your sharing, your experiences, and your principles with us. There's so much to learn. And I love the idea around your name. There's Zen mango because from customer karma to be human, there is so much Zen around. And it's great that I also noticed that you're often called the brand Yoda. So I'm sure you've got some great sayings and a great quotation book. Maybe it's your, your next book, the quotes of the Zen,

(: 29:04

Add something on the name Zen mango. So the name of the company was a restaurant marketing group, very boring. And as my clients were leaving the restaurant field, I needed to find a new name. So four of us in my basement were sitting down and talking about names. And these were like strategic marketing group, like boring names my daughter she was 13, one, three. And she had just been named by advertising age magazine and top 30, under 30. She comes and says, if I give you a name, will you buy me? And my friend’s pizzas, I'm like, sure, 10 minutes later, one zero. She comes in and says, Zen mango, am like pst, She is like no dad listen, Zen rhymes with Sen. And also it has an aura of superiority wisdom yodalike I'm like, okay. And she says, mangoes are the world's fastest-growing fruit. And it allows us to bring the colors of restaurant marketing group right into this.

(: 30:06

And she's not only that I've even given you a logo from mango, with a little cool sign. As the two years on that side, you like to do this, which is a perfection. That's what it is. You know, I find with the biggest of creativity? There's an idiot who challenges it. And that's the, I was the idiot. I was challenging why and mango doesn't work. And Cody Roper in my team brilliantly stood up, give, gave my daughter $50 or a hundred dollars by seeing all the pizza you want and whispered to me, Arjun trust me a year from now, or even longer or sooner, you will appreciate the name. And today I, every chance I get, I have to tell the story. It connects me back to my daughter and it just puts a smile on my face. And it gets me excited to be part of[inaudible]

(: 30:47

Right. Well, there's always a great story behind a great name. And thanks for sharing that with us. It's been wonderful. Well, folks, my guest has been Arjan Sen and his company is Zen mango. And you certainly connect with him on Zen mango, a website, and also his own personal brand website, Arjun Sen.com. Well, what a wonderful episode, 100, you've been a terrific guest Arjun, and I really am honored to have you on this milestone episode. Thanks again for coming.

(: 31:20

Thank you.

(: 31:21

And listeners, come back again. Next time. We'll continue our around-the-world travels to meet creative experts and professionals who are getting inspired for new ideas, who are sharing their methods and techniques and principles on how to organize these ideas. And most of all, sharing the confidence and the connections to help us launch our ideas out into the world. I'm Mark Stinson, and we've been unlocking your world of creativity and we'll see you next time.