Episode 240
Jude Warne, Rock Reviewer on Bob Dylan
Jude Warne, Rock Reviewer on Bob Dylan
This podcast welcomes Jude Warne, a rock biographer, music reviewer, and author. We discuss Bob Dylan's creativity in his book “The Philosophy of Modern Song” -- as well as the book “Folk Music of Bob Dylan: Biography in Seven Songs.”
Bob Dylan's book, The Philosophy of Modern Song, captures the mystery and creativity of his immense body of work with references to other famous songwriters. It showcases his creative voice as a critic, author, and biographer to discuss the writerly quality of other musicians' songs and their lives.
Jude says, “It highlighted for me a lot of the songwriters and songs that he touches on, he brings out their mystery or the mystery going on with the characters in each of the songs he talks about. So there's, the theme really is consistent in my opinion throughout the whole book.”
I replied, “It's exciting. And mystery is a nice word because how many people have tried to interpret a Bob Dylan song, and it's like how much meaning could we infuse in it? But often to look at it the other way and say, how does somebody like Bob Dylan interpret other people's songs?”
· Bob’s creative, conversational tone has opened listeners' minds as he riffs and creates new stories for his songs that showcase his writing talent and insight.
· Bob is an experienced music reviewer who notes the influence of older genres in modern songs, having charted on the Billboard charts since the 1950s and 60s.
· Bob Dylan's selection of music speaks to artists of all eras, regardless of gender, race, or background, showing his unique creative vision and critical insight. Even though it may not seem like a “diverse” selection of artists to profile.
· Through reflection on the works of great artists Bob Dylan questions if sacrificing one's personal identity is necessary to create strong and meaningful works.
· We shared a laugh while envisioning Bob Dylan doing some real-life mundane tasks like sorting the photos used in the book, because of his persona of a philosophical approach to writing.
In the second half of the interview, we discussed a Bob Dylan biography on his creative journey through influences and contributions to history and culture, written by Rolling Stone critic and author Greil Marcus.
As we closed, Jude talked personally about her work as a creative critic, author, and biographer—and her secret dream to DJ in her own club where she can choose what songs to play.
We promised to keep the conversation going and check in periodically on new books and albums, especially ones that Jude reviews on platforms like The Vinyl District.
Jude is now working on a new book about a seventies rock artist which is set to be released in Fall of 2024.
Follow her work on the web at www.judewarne.com and on Instagram @judewarnewriter
My thanks to Larry Hughes at Simon & Schuster Publishing for an advanced introduction to the Bob Dylan "Philosophy of Modern Song" book.
Transcript
auto generated transcript
Mark Stinson, host: [:Obviously, Grammy winning. Of all kinds and of course capped off with a Nobel Prize in literature. But we're gonna talk about Bob Dylan today in a couple of different ways. We'll talk about the book he wrote the philosophy of Modern song and the biography that was written about him.
Folk music of Bob Dylan biography in seven songs. And I'm just so glad to be joined with a rock biographer and music reviewer, Jude Warne, to talk about Bob Jude. Welcome to the.
d a chance to talk with Jude [:Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: you can never read enough. And especially when you're in the, in that world it's nice to just get different ideas about what you'd like to do what you don't want to do, and just. take advantage of all the great music writing that's going on out there at the same time.
Mark Stinson, host: Focusing then on Bob Dylan, why don't we start with his book, the Philosophy of Modern Song.
This is quite a book. First you even start with the price tag. It's $45. It's thick. It's page after page of stories about songs. But I was even struck by, Hey, there's not much liner notes here. There's not much of an introduction. There's no introduction really. What is this book gonna be about?
How is it structured? Why did he write it? He literally, Just jumps into it, doesn't he? Yeah.
's always an element of this [:But you're right, this book goes right alongside that theme. And it also highlighted for me a lot of the songwriters and songs that he touches on, he brings out their mystery or the mystery going on with the characters in each of the songs he talks about. So there's, the theme really is consistent in my opinion throughout the whole book.
It's
Mark Stinson, host: exciting. And the mystery is a nice word because how many people have tried to interpret a Bob Dylan's song, , and it's like how much meaning could we infuse in it? But often to look at it the other way and say, how does somebody like Bob Dylan interpret other people's songs?
How, what would he see in Johnny Taylor or Pete Townsend or Willie Nelson? All, all the songs that he's profiling. Isn't it interesting to have an insight. His philosophy towards their music.
me into how into characters [:In this book, he really goes right into the songs and reminds. Us and reminds readers of the writerly quality of these different musicians. And separates the songs from the musicians too, and makes it part of this ongoing story cannon, like of the universe, which is how I like to see a lot of his work too.
They're removed from the self, which makes them more relatable. . So that was interesting to note while I was reading. .
Mark Stinson, host: Yes. And I love all sorts of books and article. There was a Wall Street Journal column for a long time that kind of dissected the music and told the story behind the songs.
And I like all kinds of those books, but this is different in that it's his interpretation of what's behind the song. I don't know that it's always the songwriter who's telling the story.
s and it's very interesting, [:Incredible. Talent and and insight that he has. And also the openness, I think, with which he views characters and songs, the possibilities that are there. It opened up my mind further to that.
Mark Stinson, host: Great. And I was thinking about, as a writer, you might have also appreciated that he has this second person.
, you are in the song, you become this character. You and he says you a lot. Yeah. And it does remind me of even the way he talks both in his radio show and when you see him on stage it has that kind of conversational tone. That's how we all talk. I think, say you probably more than we say we or I or listeners, so to.
my experience of trying your [:Meanwhile, every, everything's personal anyway. But I like that he breaks through that as happens a lot in popular song. I think Joni Mitchell spoke about that when she heard some of Bob's stuff immediately how she liked the, in the second person direct address that he used. . And it does make Or monologue in a play. It just makes it more powerful a lot.
Mark Stinson, host: And as a follower and a reviewer of music of all generations, clearly Bob is one of these, I think he is one of the only artists or the first artist maybe to hit the billboard charts in every decade since the sixties. But thinking about some of, the title of the philosophy of Modern Song.
d Bobby Darin and like maybe [:I, I noticed a thread there. Why do you think he's talking about modern song?
Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: One of the elements that struck me reading this too, and noting that, as you say a lot of the musicians are from the earliest days of rock and roll and into early country it reminded me of how that's a lot of the artists were artists that he liked or was influenced by when he was a young, very young child.
The first modern. , theoretically modern music, he was exposed to a lot of it before Rock really took off as the sixties went on and folk music and all that. So that's what kept hitting me while reading this, once in a while I'm like, oh, interesting. He chose that older song, like you said, Whelan Jenn is great.
olor or artists of different [:He just, it feels very personal to me. Like these are his favorites or the songs he chose to talk about, write about in this book. . And he doesn't try to make up. Society or try to be fair and it's, he's just being true to himself, which is valuable. Nice.
Mark Stinson, host: We'll look at a couple examples of that.
One is, takes on Bobby Darin as a Frank Sinatra. Wannabe . That , yeah. It's or he thought he could be, but clearly or an Elvis be, either one of those he happened to be stuck in that time period.
Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: Yes. And I think that's really great too, to highlight these.
Yes, they're music legends, but especially through the lens of history. Younger people nowadays. Frank Sinatra's definitely the popular singer from that era. We think of first, and we don't always, one doesn't always get to Bobby. Darren. So he's bringing these people who deserve to be lauded and discussed into Light, so you can observe.
s as well, per se. , like he [:Mark Stinson, host: Yes. And you mentioned that he didn't try to create this sort of per perfect patchwork of ethnicity's race, music, or gender, but a lot of reviewers have noted how few female singer songwriters are featured in this book, and I wonder if that has as much to do with Bob's sort of view of music or the influences they may or may not have had on him.
I was curious what you thought about. .
Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: I like to consider ideally artists in their work without first going to gender, race, background, whatever their personal qualities beyond their writerly self might be. So when I think of my top artists, a lot of rock artists I like from history they're mostly men.
n is similar where he wasn't [:Like you mentioned, I think you mentioned before, the Eagles and. Elvis Costello, even in The Clash, which I never associate with Bob's music immediately, just cuz they came out in different, started in different eras. But the fact that he speaks to these artists or songs that were a bit surprising it makes you think about history in this bigger way.
It made me think about it in that way. So I was impressed by those choices. Yes.
Mark Stinson, host: And when I think about landmark, Gypsies, tramps and Thieves by Cher wouldn't probably make my list of influential music. But thinking of Cher, he does go into the story about, the background of Carnival and, these traveling menstrual show shows.
e him here, this song is at. [:Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: Yeah, and I. It's very admirable how he, in this particular circumstances too, in the book, like the quote that you just mentioned, how he does try to take the historian's stance as well. Giving facts like that, not just personal opinion, but weaving this new narrative about the song with his own reflection injected into it.
But I really enjoyed that. .
uquerque to Oklahoma or, all [:But this is the storytelling and you were talking about the way Bob writes stories, develops characters. And oftentimes makes a 12 minute song out of the story. Yeah. But he's, he loves these.
Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: Yeah. And it was making me think about is a narrative writer's talent directly proportional to the willingness he has to give up his own identity over the course of writing the song or book or whatever he or she's working on.
Cuz sometimes the strongest Pieces of work with conviction are those where the artist really removes a lot of his personal identity. And it takes on this bigger quality, in my opinion. But it was the reading this book and having this great artist, Dylan, talk about all these other great artists.
It was a nice world to hang out in.
se mid-century very eclectic [:How do you think that contributed to the. ,
Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: I think it makes it, definitely more t tactile experience. But it, I think the design job is really beautiful and it does have a bit of a scrapbook quality because of that. And almost like a scrapbook of the second half of the 20th century.
Music is. But I think that adds a lot to the book where, as you said, the pieces are pretty short on each song. And because there are these different. Put alongside the song analysis and it just makes it a rich experience. So it did hit me a bit like a coffee table book of a kind, but a, a serious one.
Yes. Nothing. You can't really just flip through it. You can, but it warrants greater attention.
Mark Stinson, host: In because there's not a big acknowledgement section. In fact, if you try to read all those photo credits your eyes will go blurry. And there's not a book jacket to explain it, but can you imagine Bob, he's telling the stories and I was hearing his voice, like his old radio show on xm, no.
he's got the manuscript and [:Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: I can't ever think about Dylan too much in any tactile physical situation. So like ethereal and yes, and really talented at discussing and addressing the physical life experience. Yeah, I would never think him, like standing at a table buying a movie ticket, like doing stuff that a regular person does.
Yes, he's so cerebral but yes that, there had to be a point of that. I imagine during, I
Mark Stinson, host: was gonna say there had to be a point, whether he was physically putting a fingerprint on these selections or whether at least he was approving it. Somebody had to say, Hey, this is your book.
the real life mundane stuff [:Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: When I consider it from Dylan's individual perspective, yes, it absolutely does.
It can't remove that stamp, that tattoo from it, that it's Dylan's ideas and opinions about what modern song is. And his influences are clear too, by the, a lot of the choices he has in the book. Yeah. , but in a more removed way. I don't know if that's ever actually possible to do it in a more removed way.
So this is, this may be the closest answer. We get to that and who better, I can't think of a better songwriter, that we're fortunate enough is still alive with us today that could begin to tackle this kind of concept. Yes. .
gs and in the vinyl district [:That he created and that ultimately, now you put these books side by side and you get this, what were my influences and what were my contributions? Did you see those in that bookending sort of way? .
Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: In part I did think it was interesting from a timely perspective that they came out close, close to each other.
But Grail Marcus is probably my favorite music writer, cultural writer of all time so far. And I consider him to be in this, this class of his own. And he has his own thought trip that he's had going his whole life as a writer and commentator on, on. History culture from recent decades, but.
e Dylan song and relating it [:So I love how he does that so successfully and it become, About so much more than just the song. He's able to weave the world together, in my opinion. So I was very glad to read this book when it came out. And mystery Train is such a fantastic rock book. It's probably my personal favorite.
And he has written about Dylan before, of course, with the Invisible Republic book and the basement tapes, and that's a great work. But this was a nice a. to his, just his view on Dylan and what he
like anything Dylan did after:Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: Any stuff.
or based around these seven [:Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: Yes and no. I feel like it's another one of those impossible situations where, it's not your, you can't cover one songwriter's life or they're songwriter songwriting life just in seven songs.
But you, whatever seven you choose, you can use to make examples that you could also. other songs, arguably just examples about their career and their artistry. So I might have chosen different seven songs but perhaps some of the ideas would be similar ones in terms of the points you're making about his contribution, Dylan's contribution to culture and stuff.
But yes, it's like a there, to me it comes across as a bit of a joke in a light way. Not the book at all, but the concept of, seven songs about that. Tell the story of this artist's life. Cause it is a limited viewpoint and it can't quite be done, but it's, the book itself works anyway.
[:Mark Stinson, host: , so good. My guest is Jude Warren. J u d e w a r n e.com is her website. Jude, it's so good to talk to you about this kind of music. And while we're talking about Bob's craftsmanship I wanna maybe talk about your craftsmanship for a little bit. How you approach reviewing and, a true criticism not.
the word we think of, and I'm criticizing you , but true criticism of work like this. How do you approach it when you first take a book, like Bob's philosophy of modern song and you say, I'm gonna write a review of this. How are you looking at it?
Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: There are usually a few strong points that come across to me while I'm reading a book or listening to an album that I'm considering or reflecting upon.
And those [:Place. And then slowly they become . This sounds far out, but they become worded, so they're, but they're, because they have emotional quality, they catch my attention, and I pay attention to those ideas or the beginnings of ideas as I could finish, try to finish the work I'm reading, listening to the work.
But yes, it's usually how I.
Mark Stinson, host: Oh, that's good. And listeners to the podcast, since we're an audio platform, they may not see the generational gap between us, Jude, but you are not the aging baby boomer. Reviewing and remembering, where were you when you heard the album or, what were you doing when Credence was on the charts?
nteresting point of view and [:Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: Yes, I would say absolutely, and that's part of what I like about it as a writer and re reflector thinking about something.
Kind. You can think of it as complete an album that came out in 76 or whatever. Even though I think that every work be, if it's being reflected upon now, it's not quite done. It's still happening in some way. But I like the. Theoretical finality from one end about an album that is, is done, has come out already.
Because I can, I feel like I have the full grasp of what it was intended to be or what it remains to be now. So it feels like a more comforting subject to tackle from my view. But yeah, that's how I think. . Yeah.
certainly with the renewed, [:Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: Yeah. Yes, I think so. And just. The power of vinyl sonically and how different it is from so many preferred listening methods nowadays, especially with younger generations, is digital listening, Spotify or just downloading albums on your phone or iPad or something.
So it's such a nice stark contrast. But I think a lot of younger people are into both which I admire and I am
Mark Stinson, host: too. And so let's turn the page to what we're looking forward to. Are you working on any new reviews or what new music, or listen, are you listening to that you're interested in?
so much going on there for me[:In terms of new, any newer music I've liked Andy Shop's work a lot. He had a couple of really great albums that came out recently and one coming out this. . His writing is really great. I love song writers and his songwriting is very satisfying for the Neon Skyline album is a great concept record worth checking out as a Paul Simon element going on.
Continued storyline throughout the album.
Mark Stinson, host: It's great. . . And your Instagram is awesome to remind of some songs and tracks that you wouldn't normally listen to otherwise, , it's , here's what's on your stereo today.
Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: It's good stuff. Enjoy that. It's like my, one of my dream jobs is to be a DJ somewhere in this imagined rock club that probably doesn't exist anymore, , or I get to choose different songs to put on.
So I make a lot of playlists, like a lot of music
keep this dialogue going and [:You've been placing your reviews, but I'd love to share these insights and your viewpoints with the listeners. So let's stay in touch. That would be great. Thank you so much. Yeah. Anything new projects.
Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: Yes, I am working on a new book. I'm very excited about it. It's about a seventies rock artist who is still around today and made wonderful records in the eighties and forward also, but a lot of his prime Music releases were during that era.
ut the end of next year, fall:Mark Stinson, host: Awesome. We'll keep the listeners informed. We'll put all those connections in the show notes so that we can follow you and stay in touch with your.
Great.
Jude Warne, Music Reviewer & Biographer Writer: That's so
l continue the conversation. [:We'll look at their work, what inspires them, how they organize theirs, ideas, and a lot of, even what we've talked about today, how to get the work up and out into the world and face the critics and know that the work is. Certainly Bob did that for many decades and continues to do that. So it's been great to focus on Bob as an artist today and Jude Warne and her insights on his work as we've had that in the conversation.
So come back again next time and we'll continue to unlock your world of creativity. Bye for now.
