Jillian Lauren, New York Times Best-Selling Author of "Behold the Monster"

  Welcome back, friends, to our podcast, Unlocking Your World of Creativity, and we love to travel around the world talking to creative practitioners about, yes, how they get inspired and organize ideas, but ultimately how we gain the confidence and the connections to launch our work out into the world. And today our theme is Empathy and Storytelling and Creativity, and I'm so glad to have as my guest, New York Times bestselling author, Jillian Lauren.

Jillian, welcome to the

show. Hi, thank you so much for having me.

It's good to see your smile and Jillian has such a diverse creative background and her latest book we're going to be talking about, Behold the Monster. It's an account of confronting serial killer Samuel Little and then her determination to lift up the voices of the victims of these crimes.

But along Jillian's journey and her storytelling relating to these stories but also all her work and Different creative media Jillian, as I look down the list of all the creative experiences you have and are working on currently, memoirs, true crime, film scripts, TV pilots even chasing news stories as a newspaper contributor.

What do you see as some threads for you anyway, as you approach the creative process? What are the commonalities in all of these media?

I flow very freely and always have between different mediums. And, and the process of creative expression for me, it has a core to it, of seeking of, of the journey, the hero's journey per se or the buddy story or, whatever archetypally you are pursuing,

I just totally, I'll tell you that you actually, the reason that I am and have been A little scattered this morning in our conversation is that you've caught me at this incredibly creative moment, which is you caught me at the funnest part when you said it's good to see your smile.

You could have talked to me anytime. In the last four years, you may have gotten one in an hour, it's been a time of a different sort of gravity in my life because, as serious as the work that I've done in the past I felt a sort of grave responsibility around this last work.

Behold the monster the creative process is one of Jonathan Ames once told me writers hang out. Some writer told him that I can't remember what writer told him that, I don't know in my mind. It was Joyce Carol Oates at Princeton or something when he was driving a cab, but I don't actually think it was.

I think I made that up because writers also make things up but writers hang out and that always that always struck me when I when I found myself, Saying for the first time, in the last couple of years, I hit material that was so hard for me to actually really delve into it on the level that I do that I had always said, there's no such thing as writer's block.

I don't believe in it. And I'm like, I'm the great Santini when it comes to discipline, when it comes to teaching memoir, I did wonderful workshops with, women who have become great friends of mine before COVID. And then, of course, the whole landscape changed, but I just.

I'm a hard ass about it. I say, I can tell you how to write a novel right now. You don't even have to pay me. I'm not even going to write a book about it. I'm just going to tell you how to write a novel. And it's, if you can give it an hour and a half a day. If you can sit down for an hour and a half a day, you can write a book in about a year and a half.

Now, I can't tell you if it's going to be a good book, but you'll have a book. People hate that answer. They hate that answer. They hate it because they want art to be like this mysterious thing that comes to them. I cannot tell you how many parties I have sat at at Gymboree and kindergarten events.

And, like waiting on line for Santa and we're Jewish, I should say, but it was still waiting on line for Santa. And in any case, and have, people making chit chat and say, you wrote a book. My sister in law wrote a book. She self published, about her diet or whatever.

And I, was like my first memoir is about, I was a teenage mistress of... The Prince of Brunei and my second book is a memoir about addiction. My third book is about adopting my son from Ethiopia. And my fourth book is about my relationship with a serial killer. So how about you?

It's like quite an icebreaker. It really, it, it separates the wheat from the chaff pretty fast though. Yeah, pretty fast.

Let's talk about this process then because and certainly we've said empathy is an ingredient but you say I'm going to take on this story, you know of a serial killer and the story hasn't really fully been told and I'm going to tell it, where do you like

you said, I know I'm not I think that There's a lot of an impulse to portray me as like I was on a crusade or something to give these women back their names.

And the fact is, that it was far more shallow and opportunistic than that. And and also based in, in, in curiosity, there was a deep curiosity in me. And I thought. I Was at an interview with this famous detective that was a hard to score interview about a totally different case, and she happened to tell me about this underreported serial killer that she suspected had killed many more women across the country.

And I decided I was going to go in and try and get this guy to talk. Now, empathy to me is something that, as I first considered... Talking to Sammy Will Little, who proclaimed his innocence, as far as I knew, was in prison for life for three murders, but, could have committed as many as who knows because he cherry picked his victims for 30 years.

By the fact that people wouldn't care about them, wouldn't report them missing, they were marginalized, often sex workers, drug addicts, women of color and in any case so it's pretty cool. I was like, okay, I have a sort of a mission and some meaning. I have a sense of opportunism. Here's an underreported story.

Maybe I can bring some heat to it. And what I followed first was my curiosity. And that's never really, I've gone like just so far with my curiosity until I can tell it's the wrong road, when you're like hiking and you're like, Oh shit, I went down the wrong feeling. I got, I like, I see that this path is not turning into a path here.

I'm going to turn around and try it. The other way and I bet I'm gonna get to the waterfall like it, I've had some experiences like that. Sure. But mostly if it really piques my curiosity to the point where, like my husband said Or, and like you just said, it's nice to see you smile.

That doesn't happen all the time. So when I come out enthused and I'm like, Hey, have you heard about this, and this? Not necessarily like you want to hear that all night long. Yes. Especially if true crime is not your thing. But, he tries to be a little bit like, sure, talk.

La. In any case Yeah, He wants to see me passionate. See me involved. And, I haven't found anything that has involved me in that way that I haven't been able to somehow capture the reader. And reach beyond just a personal experience into a universal.

oBserve observation. Yes.

And the creativity and stimulation and I guess back and forth. And you mentioned your husband, you are a rock and roll wife. So there's creativity literally pounding in the walls. I presume

we are show people as I like to say, and and I think of that in every sense when you say being, very cross medium, it's all the same to me.

The process. It's not the exact same. The rituals will be different. The, actions will be different. The clothing will be different for me to step on a stage. Then it will be for me to sit in front of my computer and, wrestle with my devils and the wall for five, six hours. bUt I definitely have a partner.

I can bounce things off of who also has struggled. And there's a whole lot of loud instruments and great big boxing bag to kick around here. If you want to play and scream. But.

Yeah, that's good. And then there's the business side, Jillian. I think about pitching the story selling the story, getting now, get it published, get some interviews, market the book, go to some signings.

How do you balance the pure creativity, what I would call versus maybe the business side of the creativity.

One day at a time. buT it comes in cycles. There are natural cycles. I'm usually working on more than one project at a time. So the problems can come when those cycles overlap. When the dead the deadlines start to overlap and you don't have like you're not in that fomented embryonic time of a, an article where you're running around and grabbing interviews and having ideas and figuring out what you're writing about and then, putting a exclamation point on something else and handing it in when the things converge, I think, those, that's when, a grown ass woman starts to have to pull all nighters and, it's like trying to stay awake, taking my kids to school. And it's not, it's not ideal. It's the, I just, the work life balance is not ideal in those moments. But I also think that like I was saying before, how many kindergarten parties have I been to where everyone thinks that they don't, they've done all the work because they've thought through the story in their head.

They're like, I've done the hard part, right? I figured it all out. All I have to do is sit and write it down.

All I have to do

is sit and write it down. As if typing is writing. As if, I was like, oh, okay. Let me know how that goes when that is so easy. And I keep thinking that. there's this idea that we have that things are supposed to get easier.

And I don't know if you know who Phil Stutz is. He wrote a book with Barry Michaels called the tools, which is a a very trendy kind of psychotherapeutic book, but focuses on the creative process. And they have this I'm going to bungle it it's not I'm going to bungle it, but, and I can't even remember what it's called.

It's called The Reversal of Desire. But what you do is, you imagine that all the pain and all the resistance and everything, when you sit down and write, and try to write that book that's been in your head all this time, that day that it's so easy that day you've been waiting for. That it's perfect.

You have like your coffee and like the sweater you always pictured from anthropology and you have your little I'm here with my microphone that doesn't work. I'm a professional home. aNd And you sit down, it's like quiet, probably it's early in the morning or late at night, and no one's vomiting, and no one needs you, and no one's calling, and there's nothing nagging at the back of your brain, you have to work in the now, in life, and yeah.

The birds aren't always chirping out on the patio while you're drinking the coffee and writing your memoir?

Like I said, I can tell you how to write a book, sit down every day and write, write for an hour and a half, start writing 10 minutes. It's a muscle. It's not, by the way, your brain's not a muscle, people.

It's not an actual muscle. But, that's a metaphor. You're carving, what you're doing is carving neural pathways. Yes. You're creating good habits. You're doing all that fun stuff no one, is an artist because they want to be really disciplined and create good habits. That's not where that impulse comes

from.

That would pretty much be the opposite. Creatives and good

habits. Yeah, creatives and really good like attention spans. And and I just think that's. That's our war. I Don't know if you like Marina Abramovic at all, what she puts her proteges through, which puts herself through, she does like endurance performance art, and she's art is war, and um, and resistance is war.

And yeah, now, some days I lose the battle, but I, I would be, it would be below my intelligence. To look at my history, to look at the many years I've sat here, when it didn't work, I've sat here when it did work, I've had successful books, I've had less successful books. I've had yeses I couldn't believe, screaming in the middle of the street, yeses.

And I have had nos that were like staring at the ceiling fan for three solid days. I couldn't believe it. My first proposal after my first bestseller didn't sell at all. And I was like, wait a second, what? But I'm famous. And then eventually get bored. You get bored on the

floor. And you say, let's do it again.

Get up and keep writing. Yeah,

There's no question in my mind that I will do that for the rest of my life. I'm also studying forensics, criminology and law right now. And I love how these things intertwine. I don't think that we have to necessarily I was just talking to Renee Denfeld about this.

Privately before we did a book event and she's an incredible author if you've never checked out her work, but fiction, crime fiction, but she is a P. I. In the real world who works primarily with death penalty cases, looking for mitigating evidence for capital sentencing.

She's really fascinating. And, and she and I were talking and, she says, if you're going to be an artist, have a day job. And I was like, wait, what? No, the goal is to never have a day job. The goal is to like constantly hustle article after, and I'm like, is it though?

I'm not sure. So I'm following my curiosity right now. And the true crime world has taken me somewhere that through following my curiosity, we're some of the darkest depths I've ever seen in my life, both in my heart and also in front of my eyeballs. And and also led me to a sense of meaning, which is what I believe keeps us going.

Through the fact that, I don't know, creativity sucks. It sucks, . It's the worst. , like whatcha saying, is following my oldest curiosity. My oldest wants to be a pilot. I'm like, thank you. He's oh my gosh, mom, you do not understand that theory of relativity. I was like, thank you, Lord.

Somebody in this house does. I

have a science mom. Or my mom. I have a science son.

That's hilarious. That's

awesome. Yeah, I know. He wants to go to Annapolis. He's working very hard. I Know. That is why. That's the greatest parenting advice I can give for creatives and anyone else. Is I have the worst mouth.

I really haven't, and artistically, I've exposed my kids to, if they're ready, what kind of, whatever, they just have to talk me into it. My kid was not thinking really wanted to see The Exorcist. I'm like he's almost 16. I'm still like, you know what? I saw Jaws too early, and I still can't.

You're messed up. I'm still not good in the deep end.

That's right. There's that fine line of timing.

I'm really not doing anything that you can't see the bottom.

That movie messed. me up for the rest of my life. No, but I'm seriously like thinking of the exorcist and thinking of the sexual content. And, and so I'm like, it's not the bad words. Do you want me to tell you what the words are? Like, here are the words. But what concerns me is you watching a girl younger than you like harm herself, and act in sexual ways that were that shocked the world at the time and Put it into perspective of feminism for him.

And he was like here you go. There's a good, there's another good parenting tip. So many good tips. Let me give you a feminism lecture about the exodus. He's nevermind. But yeah, swear, just swear up and down all day long. Go talk to serial killers. Go and have sex with princes when you're 18 and be sex trafficked.

And don't do that actually really don't do that. Don't do that. But. I will say that both my kids are straight as arrows. I

love that.

They, my little one swears like sometimes, but it's just to mess with me. Just so he can go, you said that when blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But yeah, my only one like language when I halfway across the house.

So there's breadcrumbs of curiosity, though, must also, from a creative standpoint, we've been talking about selling the story and so forth. But it's hey, what if this were a movie? What if this were a film? What if this were a, episodic TV show? Do those kind of ideas help you with the platform?

It's we wrote the book, but I wonder what else it could be.

There are two such different mediums. Like I write screen plays and teleplays and I've written both adaptations of my own work and I've written originals that have been in different stages of development.

Nothing, no, nothing that you've seen but hopefully something you'll see soon. And particularly this book has is seemed to be fast tracked. And it's very different. But each has really helped the other and has informed the other, which is, something that I'll tell my students also,

go learn another language. Go learn to play the ukulele. I'm telling you for ten minutes a day. Not for the hour and a half a day that you are writing, which is what you actually want to do, right? With your life, you could probably carve out that much time. Do something else creative because what's going to do is going to light up other.

If you can tell I'm really into neuroscience, the neuroscience of creativity, it's going to light up other parts of your brain. All of a sudden you're going to find that you're having ideas, keeping your notebook next to you and writing things down.

For people who are listening on the audio podcast, but is that a anatomical diagram of the brain on a poster size hanging on your wall behind you?

Yeah, the brain is everything. Like you said, not a muscle, maybe, but

I have to clarify that for people because I don't want to, reinforce stereotypes about it, but it does need to be everything is an actual muscle. You're so fun.

I want to come full circle, Jillian. Like you said, we've been talking about various serious books.

But I do want to ask what is making you smile? You mentioned that this was a recent present phenomenon for you, but as a creative, I wonder what's bringing you some light and joy.

Well,

I think, I'm done with the, the book release the very first part of the tour. The book's doing very well so that anxiety has been lifted.

My husband has been gone. He's a, like you said, a rock musician. He plays bass for Weezer's Begone Tour.

After this, I'm going to go get my Weezer CDs out and listen to them.

I'd love to hear that. And he's been gone for months, he's back. So that's great. And I love the fall just seems to be a good creative time for me, even though it's a hundred degrees here in Los Angeles, but And I'm looking toward the next steps and the next thing.

Now, as much as I'm still working on the little cases, I'm still, talking about the story. I have a paperback coming out in April. I also have a there was an entire documentary made about me, not by me, by Joe Berlinger, who recently did Epstein, Madoff. Stommer Bundy Netflix, and you can actually stream mine elsewhere, not Netflix.

But it's called Confronting a Serial Killer, so that was being made about me while I was working on the book, because I did a fair bunch of detective work that was unusual for a journalist. And had and went all over the country and had very productive relationships with a lot of law enforcement.

And there's a podcast with me and Michael Connelly because I poached his detectives. The detective who was based on or who the character Harry Bosch was based on is a man named Rick Jackson. He's a retired LAPD detective. And Rene Ballard, who is Connelly's newest character, is based on Detective Mitzi Roberts.

And both of them feature heavily in the book. Michael was also a mentor to me throughout the process.

There's a lot of good stuff there. What a great conversation, Jillian. I'm sorry that we have to wrap it up now, because I think we could just keep this coffee clutch going for the rest of the afternoon.

But it's been such a pleasure talking with you and getting to know you. Sometimes these interviews, as listeners will know, are, here's my seven questions and I've just gone down the list. This has been a roller coaster ride of fun and intrigue and also creative inspiration. So I really appreciate it.

Thank you so much. Yes. And all the best with

your student. And also please check out my website, JillianLauren. com. I am Jillian Lauren author at TikTok, which is a new channel I have focused on missing persons. Please check it out. And my Instagram at Jillian Lauren.

Fantastic. We're going to have all those channels in the show notes and links or people and the other creative resources you shared with us earlier.

I'll put those links in there too. So my guest has been Jillian Lauren. Her latest book is called Behold the Monster, but she has lots of other like Some Girls, My Life in a Harem. We've talked about that a little bit today and lots of other work. Coming and a great podcast with Michael Connolly. Come back again next time, everyone.

We're going to continue these creative conversations with practitioners everywhere. We've stopped off in LA today, but we've got creative journeys around the world to talk to more practitioners about how we get inspired with ideas and organize them. But ultimately, we've got to gain the competence and the connections to launch our work out into the world.

And that's what we're all about. So join us again next time. I'm Mark Stinson, and we'll continue to unlock your world of creativity.