Lisette Schuitemaker, Childhood Conclusions Fix

auto generated transcript

Mark (: 00:02

Welcome back friends to our podcast, Unlocking Your World of Creativity. And we've traveled the world to talk, to create creative practitioners everywhere. And my guest today is from Amsterdam and the Netherlands and Lisette. I was looking at my guest list and I think Amsterdam has been my number one destination. And so it's great to talk to you today.

Lisette (: 00:26

Next time, let's meet.

Mark (: 00:27

Yes.

Lisette (: 00:28

When you get to your number one destination

Mark (: 00:30

Exactly. I was thinking there must be a coffee shop or a, a hotel breakfast place where I could, just plant and have all of my friends and guests, come and meet me. And so you'd be on that list.

Lisette (: 00:43

Absolutely. I'm here.

Mark (: 00:45

Great. want to listeners, we're talking today to Lisette Schuitemaker, and our topic is, , alleviating loneliness and getting out of this sense that we're the only ones, and a lot of that comes from our childhood and our upbringing even. And Lisette has written some terrific books on this topic. The childhood conclusions fix, the eldest Daughter Effect, even childless Living Lisette, as we get into these books. Boy, I know I've got a lot of childhood conclusions to fix . So why don't we start there and talk about the things that we, I guess, imagine that we took from our childhood or our parents or our schools or our siblings. what are some of those conclusions and how did you capture those in your book?

Lisette (: 01:34

Yeah. want to I, I, in, in the US I, I did a Barbara Brand School of Healing, and I learned about, Wilhem Muha and his theory, how he looked at people and he listened to his clients and he said, it's basically five conclusions that we come out of our childhood with is I should not have been born. I don't belong. I'm different from everybody else. I, I should , people who go away. And then the second one is really pervasive, is that we are not good enough. It's, it's somehow that there's not enough time for us. There's maybe not enough holding of us, maybe not enough food, and then we , But because we are very, very tiny and small, everything is just one blob. So the outside at Ian said, and we, we come to this conclusion, we're not good enough.

(: 02:20

And, so, so those are the two basic ones. And the three that come on top of that are that, we should be ashamed of ourselves or we will get humiliated. So we ought to keep things in. And the fourth one is we should be in control. There's a lot of people who recognize that and, but life is not controllable. So, so that never works, but we try. And the fifth one is really, we should be perfect. We can't exist if we're not perfect. So those conclusions really, yeah, are in us A lot of the time they talk, they, they are these inner voices, but they're just conclusions from when we were very, very tiny and we were trying to make sense of, of our world.

Mark (: 03:05

Sure. want to if I could pull on a couple of those, certainly we as creative people, come to this point where we think it's not good enough. , we're not good enough. A but certainly the work is not ready for prime time and we don't want to hit the send button. We don't want to host the show, we don't want to go on stage, whatever that is. how do you think that, I mean, , and yet we may not recognize, , that started in our youth, and we think somehow this is something we're just now afflicted with.

Lisette (: 03:37

Yeah. So, and, and there's, , there's a productive side also to this conclusion because we think we are not good enough. We try harder and we want to do better. And that's the positive side of it. But a negative side of it is when, , for instance, when I start on a book and I'm, into the first chapter and all's going want to and in the second chapter, like, Nah, this is not a good topic. Nobody's want to read a topic. Nah, no, no, I don't know enough. I haven't collected enough information. I, what do I know about this topic? And then it can be really, , So yeah, this voice, it's just a voice. It comes from way back when, So sometimes it's really good to feel that there has been a lack of something that you can now give to yourself, , it's not now. And, and then say like, Okay, I hear you little voice, little baby voice from way back when, but I'm an adult now, and, this is my chosen profession. Creativity wants me to create something. It might not be, , number one bestseller list in the New York Times for a hundred weeks, but this is what I've gotta offer and I'm going to do it.

Mark (: 04:52

Wow. And you talk about control. the other point I was going to dig down on a little bit, , certainly, again, creative practitioners might want to control the situation. We might want to control our partners or our clients or our colleagues. and yet, , they don't want to be controlled either, do they?

Lisette (: 05:13

No. And the sense of control all comes from, , the, the, the broken heart, the child that wants to offer all of its to it the parent, but the parent already has a partner. So you go like, as if you are the partner, as if you needed to take care of your parent. And then the parent says, No, no, no. And, and you go like, But I've offered my whole heart. I was here with my whole heart. And, and then the heart gets broken, and you go like, This will never happen to me again. I will always read a situation, I will always be on top, but it's, it never happens. You're never fully on top. Life is unpredictable. Mm-hmm. . So these people or, or the people with that or us, all of us with that childhood conclusion, need to learn to, to trust again, and to trust life and to trust our own impulses and intuition and, and to see that, , whatever we do, if it comes from the heart, it's already good enough. It's already great.

Mark (: 06:07

Wow. And we talked about loneliness, and this alleviating the loneliness. There, there is this image of the lonely, creative, , in the basement doing the painting, writing the song, but it, but we're rarely alone. how, how do we overcome this feeling that, want to a I'm the only one that feels this way, or that I have to do everything myself?

Lisette (: 06:30

Yeah. So I am with a partner who is a painter who, he doesn't work in the basement, but he does work in a studio, and he really prefers to be alone. So there, there's those. And also writing, I would say is a bit of a lonely business. At some point, you really have to block your diary and say, No, I'm not going to all these things I could go to, because it needs to be made, it needs to be typed, it needs to be, it's just, , a time consuming thing. so, so there is, but, but we, we are all part of the fabric of life and of the fabric of family and friends. And, I think if we feel lonely, the, the, natural impulses to drawback. So I think we then need to learn to catch it quickly and then go like, and go phone someone, or go somewhere, even, , go to the park, sit on a bench, see if there's somebody else there, and just, , start a conversation.

Mark (: 07:33

Find the human connection.

Lisette (: 07:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark (: 07:35

Uhhuh. want to let's, launch then off into your own creative process. as you were writing these books, you, you mentioned, , it is sometimes a solitary, , endeavor. You have to put the words on the page, don't you?

Lisette (: 07:53

You do. You do. There is really, I have written, the eldest daughter effect together with one of my best friends who's also an eldest daughter of an eldest daughter. She has an eldest daughter. And it was great to write together. And actually I spoke to her today because we are both in the process of writing a next book. And we, we have now made the agreement to send each other 5,000 words in three weeks time, because it was, it was wonderful. usually I have a deadline because I have, a publisher at this time for the book I'm now working on, which is going to be called The Inner Life of Money. very interesting topic, where many people feel lonely, whether they have it or they don't have it. But, so I don't have a, a publisher, so I don't have a deadline. So now this friend and I have say, Okay, let's, let's, , set a date, and by that date, we will send each other something. So we're not only in our own world here.

Mark (: 08:53

Mm-hmm. . want to I definitely want to talk about the, the new money book, but let's touch on the eldest daughter effect too, the book about how firstborn women, , can harness their strengths. I was impressed with this list, Hillary Clinton, Oprah Winfrey, Cheryl Sandberg, JK Rowling, Beyonce, all of these eldest daughters, that have something in common. What did you find was the thread among these women?

Lisette (: 09:21

want to to do the research, we organized the eldest daughter day. And this had always been a dream of mine to come together with firstborn women without the others, the intruders, so to say, the siblings that came later, right? And so

Mark (: 09:36

We don't want any second or thirds here, ,

Lisette (: 09:39

Huh?

Mark (: 09:39

No second or thirds here only.

Lisette (: 09:41

No, no. Seconders here, just us. And so about a hundred women came, they had no idea what was going to happen to them. And we offered them all kinds of workshops. And, and that was a, a way of, of getting our, our data of, of doing our research. And then we looked at what they had had said, but one thing was immediately clear, the facilitators of the day had them according to age. And the oldest one was a woman who had come with her daughter and her granddaughter. So we had ge three generations of one family, of oldest daughters. And the facilitators asked this in groups of three to say, What is the main characteristic that you see as an eldest daughter trait? And so then they asked this, woman who was in her eighties, and she said, Responsibility. And the whole, , a hundred women go, Yay.

(: 10:33

, because we feel we are responsible for everyone and everything. And, and the good thing about, , reading the book or coming to the retreat at reorganizing on an annual basis because of the book, is that you get to see, yes, you can be responsible. You can't see what needs to be done, and that you're, if you take it on, you're going to, , do it. want to that's another thing. You're very ju we are very dutiful. We're very hands on, but we don't need to. So it's also like with, with, the childhood conclusions fix. There's, there's thoughts that have us until we become aware of themt, and then we can have them. And when you can have the thought or you can have the impulse, then you don't necessarily need to act on it. So apart from alleviating loneliness, there's also freeing ourselves up to be our true selves and not be at a mercy of patterns that we learned in our childhood.

Mark (: 11:33

I think that's worth rewinding the tape for a moment and underscoring what you just said. And that is, once you have and recognize these thoughts, then you can be more aware of them, and you don't have to be controlled by them. that's, that's a fast rather than, how many people do , who say, want to that's just the way, way I am. I'm an oldest daughter, , Or for me that I can't help it. I'm a Leo. I mean, , that all of a sudden we resign ourselves, because this was our, , fade in life, so to speak.

Lisette (: 12:05

Yeah. Yeah. And that is, so at the Alice's daughter retreat, there's always moments every day where, , somebody will rearrange the seats because it is better that way. And then the others will just, , sit there and watch and , Yes, I'm watching myself, , And then we all laugh and, and that is so liberating. It's so liberating.

Mark (: 12:28

want to in case any of the male listeners are wondering that couldn't possibly be talking about me as a eldest son, I can guarantee everything Lisette has just mentioned, can't be transferred to us as well. , you've mentioned that your retreat a couple of times where your, your fifth annual is coming up very soon. it'll be here before we know it. Tell us about that.

Lisette (: 12:51

Yeah, so it wasn't actually my idea. what, I think the interesting thing about books that they are like invoice, that they have a life of their own in the outside world. And so, somebody suggested to me and said, I would love to, you had these elder's daughter day, I didn't attended, I was in Dutch, some English. So, could you please do a retreat? Say, Oh, that's a great idea. And yeah, so this is going to be our fifth, of course, we had to postpone due to Covid, in earlier years. It's going to be held in Fin Horn, which is a 60 year old eco village and spiritual community in, in Scotland, in the north of Scotland that I have been connected with for decades. And, yeah, it's, if, if you can come, if any listener can come, please, , look at my website and, and see if this is for you. We, we always have a beautiful time full of, , making fun of ourselves and each other, and very, very deep sharing and tears and, , being in that eldest daughtership together

Mark (: 14:00

Mm-hmm. . And it sounds like a great environment, a great space to do that in. It is. Well give, give us those coordinates where we, where we can connect with that and learn more about it.

Lisette (: 14:11

Yeah. So one is on my website, on the events part of my website. My name is Lito Marker. That might not be so easy. Otherwise, if you do eldest daughter retreat and fin horn, f i n d h o r n, you will also find it

Mark (: 14:30

want to and we'll put the links in the show notes so everyone can, find it easy.

Lisette (: 14:34

Thanks. Thanks.

Mark (: 14:35

Yeah, you bet. Sounds like a great time. want to let's get back to the, current project. Your topic, the inner life of money. There's gotta be a lot of things, again, that come up from childhood into adulthood about how money takes a life of its own, own. Tell us what you're working on there.

Lisette (: 14:54

Yeah, so this book was not actually my idea. It was the idea of a dear friend of mine whom I met at Fin Horn, and she passed away in November, 2019. And then her husband asked me and another friend, Mari Holstein Bowers, if, if we would take on this project. And so we have been doing research as, as I do, which is reading books, which is talking to people, , hour long, two hour long conversations. And the interesting thing was that for many people it was, it was the first time they spoke to a third person about their money situation, , at length. not just in passing or superficially, but, and we are, to be honest, to be fair, mainly talking, with people who have some money.

(: 15:51

and, and then, , finding out what, how did that money come into your life? Very often, very often a story starts with my grandfather or my great grandfather, , my great-grandfather had a shop, my grandfather built it into a chain, My father sold it. And now we are investing in things, and I'm particularly interested in a field of impact investing. Like how can we invest for the good of the whole for healthy soil, healthy food, healthy people, healthy future? And so that's a bit the bias of the book. Mm-hmm. , but I've been doing research for, two years now, maybe three, Yes. 20, 21, 22. and I am still in that position where, what, what format does this book want to have? And this morning I wrote something and I said, Oh, this is interesting. Because, , creativity, , all about creativity, , but creativity is like, it's not a bust that you can wait for. I mean, you just have to start and do it. It's more like a habit. Yes. So, Well

Mark (: 17:05

That's, I'm so glad you mentioned this because, , many authors that we talked to have released a book or just released a book or about to re and so the work is done, but, now we really have a chance to look over your shoulder here and see the Yeah. The mess or the initial ideas or the puzzle pieces spread out on the table. And it's not all figured out yet, is it? , your, your outline, your table of contents even, , might not be, quite developed.

Lisette (: 17:36

That is, so that is, so my table of contents, there are a few on my wall here Yeah. that are very different. There's like the hero's journey, , you start out, then money comes into your life, you want it, you don't want it, You find allies and then you come back as the hero. I've gone down that road, I've gone down the road of, , family then growing up and coming into your own and, a system thinking became very intellectual, . So, yeah, , there is a point where I feel in, in nonfiction you have to know a lot about your material, and at the same time, you have to have some distance from it so that you can , be a bit more abstract in a way, whereas you're still factual. I don't know if I can explain this right, but at some point, my book, the book that's always on my table is this one,

Mark (: 18:49

Ah,

Lisette (: 18:50

The Grounded Theory, where it says, , look at your data, keep looking at your data, because at some point, a pattern will emerge. And I have had an experience with child living and the eldest daughter effect, so, but I'm still waiting , and I'm not waiting. I'm just, , after the, the summer holidays started again, just every morning, as dedicated to writing. And writing isn't always writing, writing is also reading, writing is also despairing. Writing is also going back to my notes, going back to previous versions. And, at some point also as you say, , making a choice and then sticking with it, hell or high water

Mark (: 19:33

Is ultimately this is how you're going to do at least the first draft. And it's interesting, you talk about, , there's a pattern, there's a structure, but still, I'm analyzing it may be a lightning bolt moment, but you're also describing just the, doing the work. , I've gotta read, I've gotta analyze and sort and code and all these things that you're doing, But I was fascinated that you went straight to what's on your wall as the hero's journey, though. I mean, it's nonfiction, but you're finding a, , creative, what, what's the creative nonfiction that I think is this genre that, that is emerged that you really are telling a story about, , something that is non-fiction, but it's still a story, isn't it?

Lisette (: 20:18

Absolutely, Absolutely. Because we, all of our lives are non-fiction, but there's still stories. We tell many stories about things that happen in our lives, which just happen. , I, I'm not, sometimes people confuse creativity and imagination, and I think my imagination is not as large as my curiosity and my wanting to know how things are and my empathy for people in certain situations. And then that's what I write about.

Mark (: 20:53

Mm-hmm. . And I think some of our, writer listeners might be interested in the details of your organizational tools. , you've got something on the wall, but are you using, , a program or note cards or scraps of paper and envelopes in a drawer? , how are you capturing all of these reading, , fundamentals?

Lisette (: 21:16

Yeah, Yeah. So I have had, the, the family dinner table all covered in, , wide cards with, themes, sub themes. And so the sub themes I have here, up, yeah, my desk is full of notes and sub themes and things. And then when I start to write, I actually like to start a book in Scrivener. I dunno if that program.

Mark (: 21:44

I, I have heard of it. I don't use it, but I've heard of it. Yes. Yeah.

Lisette (: 21:48

And I find it very, very helpful in the beginning, because at some point I go like, Okay, now I'm just going to start to write. I'm going to start with what is most alive in me. And the nice thing about Scrivener is, you can just, it has various things on your screen so you can have your notes. This is, I read this here so I can, , find it back. And you can have a table of contents, but you can very easily shift that around. and then at some point after I've written enough, then, then I move to Word, because then it's Yeah. When the structure is there.

Mark (: 22:28

Mm-hmm. . want to and for our listeners, it's evening now in Amsterdam. You've got your desk lamp on, your library is behind you. She showed us a book she always has on her desk, and there's a, a couple of hundred post-it notes, , on every . And we can all relate. It's like somebody who has highlighted the entire book

Lisette (: 22:51

. Exactly.

Mark (: 22:52

Oh, there's a good point.

Lisette (: 22:53

Is

Mark (: 22:53

Like that. Yeah. I have a book that I think every page is dog eared. It's like, I, I want to come back to this . I dunno, I'll be able to find that page again. But here it's, so it's good to see all these techniques at work. and as you then began, I, I loved what you were talking about ultimately, , from Scribner to a Word document, this thing might progress. Right. And then where would you take it, in terms of maybe having, some preliminary readers, beta readers, or, , how, how would you and your partner work together in terms of sharing ideas?

Lisette (: 23:28

Yeah, so, with the eldest daughter book, of course, there was two of us. so we, we each wrote a chapter and then said it to each other with this inner life of money. I also have, but I have a non-writing, partner who, has, is one of the co-founders of a anthrop philosophical bank. She knows a lot about money, have thought a lot about it, and she's just a wonderful person. So, I have now also committed to sending her, , something, at some point. and, even, yeah, we're starting to make this inner life of money. We're doing, going to do some family constellations. We we're going to think of, doing a podcast like you were doing and the book. So it's not only the whole focus on the book, but, but we just, yeah. Broaden it.

Mark (: 24:22

It's very nice. I was going to , forward, fast ahead a little bit to how you did see getting the information, like you said, not just the book. how do you see using either social media or other channels to help, share the story?

Lisette (: 24:40

Yeah, I find that every book, every topic of mine has like its own way of entering into the world. For instance, for childless living. I am active, most active on Instagram, where I find a world of people who either wanted children and it hasn't happened or have not wanted children, and are finding out, how how is life. It's one, one in five adults has no children, but we still feel very often like we are the only ones. So, so there's a lot of, of connection there. with the inner life of many, I would think that's a book that could also, I could talk about, on LinkedIn, which is, a medium that I really like. I used to be on Twitter, I'm not there anymore. I'm less and less on Facebook. I'm like more on Instagram and, and LinkedIn. now it works.

Mark (: 25:42

Very good. What are some of your other, before we close, what are some of the other creative inspirations you tap into? what, what keeps your flame alive?

Lisette (: 25:55

Curiosity.

Mark (: 25:57

Mm-hmm. .

Lisette (: 25:58

is really curiosity. And, and I see life. I mean, we are all part of creation, so we must all be creative. We all create every day. so I feel it is not something very special. Every conversation, this conversation is a creation. It didn't, it didn't exist before. So, but I think my main feature is that I'm just curious what makes other people tick? How things work in this world, how things could be better. That's, that's my, that's what drives me.

Mark (: 26:33

Yeah, We can learn a lot from that. Thanks for sharing. want to my guess has been Lisette Schuitemaker and Lisette. Forgive me if my Dutch is not as good as it, it should be, but I'll be tuning it up before I come to Amsterdam to have coffee with you and other friends, in the nether room. That'll be great. want to be wonderful. I can't wait. Yes, that's right. Yes. want to unless there's a hope, you'll come back for our next episode. We're going to continue talking to creative practitioners around the world. We've stopped in Amsterdam today, but we've also been in from Finland to LA to Vietnam, over to Singapore. and in future dates, we'll be all over talking to creative practitioners about how they tap into their original thinking. And as we've talked about today, organizing those ideas is a very key step. And then of course, getting the confidence and making the connections to launch the work out into the world. And that's what we're all about. So come back again next time. And until then, I'm Mark Stinson, and we're unlocking your world of creativity. See you soon.